The Trial Lawyers College Podcast

The Trial Lawyers College Podcast talks to leading attorneys, TLC board members, and faculty about the ideas and the issues that are affecting trial lawyers today. The TLC podcast covers courtroom strategy, communicating with jurors, connecting with clients, methods that drive success, balancing healthy relationships with a busy practice and more.
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The Trial Lawyers College Podcast






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May 21, 2020

"During my trip, I learned that in Latin American culture, hummingbirds symbolize strength, hope and migration. I knew that I wanted to use that symbol in my paintings when I got home." 

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews Portland artist Janie Lowe on her travels along the US/Mexico border and the artwork that resulted from her journey. Explore paintings from Janie's Borderland Stories collection as you listen.

In May of 2019, Janie traveled from her home in Portland to get a first-hand view of the people and the environment along the border between Texas and Mexico. Her travels took her from Brownsville to El Paso, donating supplies and volunteering at respite centers, visiting with landowners, and seeking to understand and capture the struggle for survival along the Rio Grande river.

Janie discusses the efforts underway to construct a wall along the border and how the wall will impact residents, migrants, and the environment. "The closer we got to the wall, the more opposition there was to it. I didn't talk to one person on the border that thought it was a good idea to put the wall up and that it would do any good at all."

She shares how what she observed surprised her, saying, "I think that I expected to go down there and be heartbroken and see all this injustice, but you don't see people rushing over the river, you don't see this rush of people. You don't see the detention centers. What I did not expect was the hope that I saw and felt. That ordinary people step in and do what needs to be done for humanitarian purposes, just to help people out. People will step in and do things where the government has failed."

May 12, 2020

"I believe...we’re going to see an incredible explosion in everything that TLC is, everything that TLC stands for, and everything that TLC can be."

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews TLC President John Sloan on the strength of the Trial Lawyers College. A TLC graduate and seasoned trial lawyer, John graduated from TLC in 1998 and joined the faculty in 2002. He was named to the Board of Directors in 2010 and has served as President since 2014.

In this interview, John shares his belief in psychodrama as the bedrock of the Trial Lawyers College, and as an essential tool in connecting with clients and jurors. "The surprising thing is that through the psychodramatic method, you're going to find something in common with everyone." John first discovered psychodrama at the Trial Lawyers College in 1998, more than 18 years into his practice. "I had had some success by then, but I realized at TLC that I really didn't know very much about what was available to me in the practice of law. I didn't understand the power that could be at my beck and call if I was willing to put in the work the story, discover the emotion of the story, to learn to love even the unlovable client."

John describes the challenges the Trial Lawyers College faces in planning seminars and colleges in the midst of a pandemic and discusses how the College might evolve in the future, from video conferencing to offering more advanced training at regional seminars. "We have an incredible staff committed to our method, who have worked their butts off for years in continuing our method, perfecting it, and figuring out better ways to teach it. The Trial Lawyers College is strong, is going to continue, and is going to be better."

May 4, 2020

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews TLC graduate, trial lawyer, and focus group researcher Bruce Phillips on creative ways to continue to drive your cases and your practice forward during tough times.

In this wide-ranging interview, Bruce describes how he has come to see the importance of blending the personal with the professional, rather than trying to keep them separated, as a tool for bringing new insight and intuition to trying a case. An accomplished musician, Bruce describes how "TLC was where I quite denying that side of myself and tried to find a way to integrate it into my practice." Whether literally composing a piece for use in a video to be used in a case, or simply playing music as a way to relax his mind and look at the issues in a different way, Bruce says he has found that bringing more of himself into a case allows him to be more connected and creative.

In 2019, Bruce started exploring the idea of conducting online focus groups in addition to traditional face-to-face sessions. The 2020 COVID-19 pandemic made the move to online essential and helped to promote broader use and improvements to web meeting technology. "While we're all sitting at home during this period of isolation, who else is sitting at home? Jurors!" Bruce says, encouraging his fellow TLC alum to explore this new opportunity. "Many of the TLC techniques can still be used in the online videoconferencing setting."

Bruce encourages TLC graduates to get in touch with him if they are interested in exploring the idea of online focus groups further. "Call if you're running your own focus group or you just need some help getting started. Right now is a wonderful opportunity to be of service to one another. The universe will bring it back in due time."

Apr 28, 2020

"Many of us are loved all the time, by many people. But if we don't get it the way we want it, the exact way we want...we don't feel loved. There is a piece of us that tends to not acknowledge the love around us."

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews TLC psychodramatist Don Clarkson. Don Clarkson is a professor, psychodramatist and philosopher who has been with the Trial Lawyers College from its very creation. In this episode, Don talks about depression, his life and his hopes as he shares intimate solutions that may just be the answer you seek. He shares his perspective on how a crisis like COVID-19 can be an opportunity for self-reflection. "I think pain is our greatest teacher. I think it is the growth producer in our life," Don says.

Give a listen, you will not be disappointed.

Apr 13, 2020

"Medical school taught me how to diagnose symptoms and how to give the drug to treat... There is no money in chronic disease resolution; there is money in chronic disease management."

The TLC Podcast branches out this month as host Rafe Foreman interviews Texas physician, Dr. Ben Edwards, on the crossroads between medicine and the law.

Dr. Edwards made the shift to integrative medicine after building a successful practice in conventional medicine. He works with his patients to drill down to the root cause of their symptoms, considering the patient's unique needs and incorporating what he calls the "Four Pillars of Health" - nutrition, hydration, movement, and peace - to make lasting change.

In this wide-ranging interview, Dr. Edwards shares his observations about the US healthcare system, describing it as having the worst outcomes of any first-world nation, despite the highest spending on healthcare. He calls for a shift in the medical education system toward a more integrated, holistic model over the current pharmaceutical model.

The interview takes a deep dive into the development and administering of vaccines and discusses how injuries related to vaccinations were taken outside the court system, indemnifying vaccine developers and limiting compensation.

Mar 30, 2020

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews trial lawyer and TLC graduate and faculty member Terry Lenamon on trying death penalty cases armed with methods learned and practiced at the Trial Lawyers College.

Terry is a trial lawyer practicing in Miami-Dade County, Florida, where he has built a reputation as one of Florida’s most respected criminal defense lawyers handling capital death penalty cases. He has handled in excess of 85 first degree murder cases. His experience has brought him national recognition as a go-to commentator on death penalty issues.

In this episode, Terry talks with Rafe about how discovering the story plays an expanded role in a death penalty defense, expanding beyond the story of the offense to consider the story of the defendant's life and circumstances leading up to the offense.

Mar 9, 2020

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews trial lawyer and TLC graduate Benjamin Cloward (TLC Sept 2013) on how the methods taught in TLC courses translate to actual use in a trial.

Ben is a partner in the Richard Harris Law Firm in Las Vegas, Nevada. In 2017, Ben was recognized as the Nevada Justice Association’s Trial Lawyer of the Year, the youngest to receive the award. He was also named to the National Trial Lawyers list of “Top 40 Under 40,” reserved for the best young trial attorneys in the country.

Over the past several years, Ben has obtained verdicts in excess of $10 million on several cases; successes he attributes in large part to the methods learned at the Trial Lawyers College. As a follow-on to one of those cases, Ben successfully lobbied the Nevada legislature for passage of AB234 “Harvey’s Law,” requiring paratransit bus drivers to be trained in first aid. Harvey’s Law was inspired by Ben’s work with the Chernikoff family, whose mentally disabled son, Harvey, choked to death while riding a paratransit bus.

Most recently, Ben obtained a stunning verdict of $38.5 million in a wrongful death suit. Ben called on his TLC training and the support of the TLC tribe in preparing his case. “There’s not another community, ListServ, organization, or school of thought like TLC,” Ben said. “You have individuals who come from all walks of life, from all across the country, who come together with the common bond of wanting to be a warrior for their client…to be a voice for the voiceless.”

Ben loves people and loves to fight for those who can’t fight for themselves. When he’s not in the courtroom, he likes to be outdoors, hunting, fishing or long-range target shooting. Ben is a devoted husband, father and Boston Red Sox fan.

Feb 12, 2020

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews Valeri Malone on how she has incorporated the methods learned at the Trial Lawyers College into her practice. 

Valeri is an associate at Loncar Associates in Lubbock, Texas, where she specializes in personal injury and accident cases. She brings two decades of experience to her clients and to the Loncar team. Her reputation as a hard-working, successful trial lawyer has earned her the respect of her peers and the trust of her clients.

Valeri received her bachelor’s degree from Stephen F. Austin State University in Nacogdoches, Texas, and her juris doctorate from Texas Tech University School of Law. While in law school, Mrs. Malone was a member of the prestigious John Marshall National Moot Court Team and a National Semi-Finalist. She was selected for early admission to Texas Tech School of Law’s advocacy program, the Board of Barristers, in which she ranked first in her class. She was also the Chair of Appellate Advocacy for the Board of Barristers.

Valeri was named as a Texas Super Lawyer, Rising Star in 2007, in 2008, and in 2009 by Thomson Reuters.

Jan 23, 2020

Maren Chaloupka is a criminal defense and civil plaintiff’s trial lawyer. She has a diverse practice, and she especially enjoys working on civil rights cases, including wrongful conviction cases and cases involving medical and mental health care in jails and prisons.  She lives in the small town of Scottsbluff, Nebraska, and serves clients wherever her work takes her. Maren is leading the Cross-Examination Constellation Regional Seminar at the Captain Cook Hotel in Anchorage, March 27-29, 2020. You can register your seat on the TLC Website at 

Nov 7, 2019

In this episode, Scott Glovsky, host of the popular podcast, Trial Lawyer Talk, TLC Graduate & Faculty Member talks about a recent wrongful death case with Brooks Cutter, Sacramento Trial Lawyer, and TLC Faculty Leader. Both of these incredible trial lawyers will be supporting TLC seminars in 2020. Learn methods to win at seminars across the nation that offer the acclaimed methods of Gerry Spence, Famed Trial Lawyer & TLC Co-Founder.

Aug 29, 2019

Oklahoma Trial Lawyer, Jacqui Ford talks about the reputation of trial lawyers and the power of conversation and credibility in and out of the courtroom. Jacqui has been attending TLC courses since 2013 and joined the faculty in 2015. She has since broadened her practice from only criminal defense to criminal defense and civil work. She is an avid member of her Oklahoma Local Working Group and has always shown her passion for everything she does with TLC.

Aug 6, 2019

In this episode, TLC's host talks with the co-leaders of the newly structured TLC Graduate-1 program, Mel Orchard & Vicki Slater. The host was able to take a back-seat to the first-launched program last year to see how they brought the Graduates out of their comfort zones with theatrical arts and music as well as trial skills. Mel & Vicki talk highly about the effectiveness of bringing creativity in as an important skill in the TLC methods and how this can relay to the jury in trial. 

May 17, 2019

Ian Anthony is our guest in this episode of the Trial Lawyers College Podcast. In this episode, we talk about how TLC differs from law school and why these differences are so important for trial lawyers. Ian Anthony is a 2016 July Graduate of the Trial Lawyers College and has attended several TLC courses since. He teaches trial advocacy at the University of Maryland School of Law and is the head coach for the trial team. He also practices as a public defender to indigents in Howard County, Maryland.

Apr 18, 2019

Welcome to episode 48 of the Trial Lawyers College Podcast. Donal McRoberts is our guest in this episode. He started his practice in 2011 handling family law and criminal defense, and by chance had an opportunity to represent a person injured in a car accident where the insurance company was denying responsibility and he’s been representing injured people since. Donal is a graduate of the 2018 July College Class and in this episode, he shares some insight into what goes on during the famous Flagship 3-Week College; the inspiration he felt while he was there and following, the connections he made and still has, and how the methods have drastically changed the way he feels about law, and how he uses them in his practice.

Join Donal as one of our students and learn methods that will change the way you practice law. You can register for a course or apply to the 3-Week College on our website at

Mar 28, 2019

In this episode, Scott Glovsky, 2007 grad and faculty member, is hosting this interview with Frank Mungo. Scott is the host of successful podcast, Trial Lawyer Talk where he interviews many of today's Trial Lawyers. Episode guest, Frank Mungo, graduated from the Trial Lawyers College in 2008 and joined the faculty in 2011. He focuses his practice on defending those unjustly charged by the government in Kentucky, Ohio, and federal courts. Frank is quick to give credit to the methods taught at the Trial Lawyers College, from discovering the story to cross-examination, as the key reason for his courtroom successes.

Mar 1, 2019

Today, I sit down with Tor Ekeland, New York City based computer, trial and appellate lawyer and 2018 July Graduate of the Trial Lawyers College. In this episode, Tor talks about something that is current in all of our lives - System security - if it is cell phones, laptops, and all other forms of technology we use and how that is threatening our personal security. And later in this episode, we talk about Tor’s 3-Week experience at TLC and the impact the methods will bring to his practice. Our July College Application deadline is just around the corner. Join Tor as a TLC Graduate, and learn for yourself how these methods can change your life and practice.

Jan 4, 2019

In this episode, I sit down with long-time TLC grad and faculty member, John Naizby. John practices law in Connecticut but has consulted with cases in all 50 states. John has a quiet demeanor but his fight is extremely strong and that shows in this conversation. When he first started with TLC in 2000, he doubted the effectiveness of Psychodrama in his life, a TLC foundational skill. Once he started to realize how it could improve his relationships, his daily responses in life and his overall perspective, he has been able to deal with accepting difficult news. Every year TLC faculty members and staff love having John at TLC events because he brings a different approach and can relate to some students in a way that no other faculty member can. His love, passion, and commitment to his clients and the college are admirable and I feel lucky I had the opportunity to get to know him at TLC’s 3-Week July College this past year.

Dec 6, 2018

In this episode, I sit down with Eric Ganci, a top rated DUI lawyer in California. He is extremely passionate about his work and it shows in this episode. Eric explains what it took to gain success as a DUI Lawyer and some important steps to take if other attorneys are considering this line of lawyering. Eric also talks about the recent marijuana uprise in California and how different a DUI case is compared to taking on a Marijuana drug driving case.

Nov 15, 2018

In this episode I talk with Nelson Tyrone, famed birth injury lawyer from Atlanta, Georgia, who graduated from TLC in 2000 and joined the faculty the year following. Nelson volcalizes his connections with birth injury and what makes what he does so rewarding. He also talks about how he uses psychodrama in his everyday life and in every case he takes. This episode is extremely powerful because while we were talking, Nelson used a fundamental TLC skill; vulnerability. I hope you enjoy this conversation and keep listening to our episodes.

Oct 25, 2018

In this interview, we have a very special guest joining, Missouri Public Defender Laura O'Sullivan. Laura attended her first TLC course in 1998 and came back in 2009 for In Defense of the Damned, TLC's criminal defense program, and joined the faculty shortly after. In this episode, Laura describes the difficulties of being a public defender, what TLC lawyers and other lawyers can do to help their public defenders offices, and how TLC has impacted her practice and life.

Oct 4, 2018

PI Lawyer, Betsy Greene from Bloomington, Indiana is with us today. She has been a lawyer for over 35 years and graduated from TLC in 2005. She joined the faculty in 2010 and has since thus taught the TLC method at regionals, seminars, and TLC’s colleges. Betsy will be on the faculty at the Washington Closing Argument Regional later this month, October 25-28. To work with Betsy, register for the Washington Regional to learn the methods to Win your next case with the Gerry Spence teachings of Closing Argument. You can register on the website at

Aug 23, 2018

We have a very special guest on this episode. Darryl Burton has been coming to the TLC since 2009 to talk to the students about death row and the 24 years he spent in prison as an innocent man. He faced many hardships, worked day in and day out to prove his innocence, and after years of sending letters and teaching himself the ins and outs of the justice system, he got a letter back from an innocence project stating they were going to take his case. His story is truly inspiring.

Darryl is having a Gala, September 8, 2018, at 6:30 pm in Leawood Kansas, for his new organization, The Miracle of Innocence. Our very own Milton Grimes, TLC Faculty, and Board Member will be a keynote speaker at the event. Tickets are available for purchase!

Jul 26, 2018

Today, we are sharing another episode from TLC Faculty Member, Scott Glovsky’s podcast, Trial Lawyer Talk. Scott talks with Daniel Rodriguez about a case that had a profound impact on him, and something that has been a relevant topic in today’s political conversations, school shootings. Daniel describes how he discovered the story by reversing roles with everyone involved and explains how important it was for him to relay the complete relevant story to the jurors. Daniel is a well-known trial lawyer from Bakersfield, California. He founded his firm, Rodriguez & Associates with the primary focus on defending the injured. Daniel joined the TLC faculty in 2009 shortly after his graduation in 2008.

Jun 28, 2018

TLC Faculty Member Greg Reeves talks with Trial Lawyer Talk Host, and TLC Grad, Scott Glovsky about a capital murder case victory after 5 years of being a trial lawyer. Greg believes trial lawyers can learn a lot from comedians in the way they tell their story in front of an audience. Greg also explains how he uses powerful tools to find the universal truth in every case.

May 31, 2018

Eric Fong talks with Trial Lawyer Talk Host, and TLC Grad, Scott Glovsky about a medical malpractice case that had quite an impact on him due to the circumstances of all the problems this case had interwoven into it. He talks about his client and the difficulties he was dealing with after an extended undetermined medical problem and got more difficult when he found out his client had prior felony charges of IV abuse. There was also a magnitude of complications when Eric reached out to other attorneys or ‘friends’ to help with the case. But in the end, a couple weeks before trial, he listened to his heart and went in a different direction than anticipated and got the needed justice for his deserving client.

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