The Trial Lawyers College Podcast

The Trial Lawyers College Podcast talks to leading attorneys, TLC board members, and faculty about the ideas and the issues that are affecting trial lawyers today. The TLC podcast covers courtroom strategy, communicating with jurors, connecting with clients, methods that drive success, balancing healthy relationships with a busy practice and more.
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The Trial Lawyers College Podcast






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Aug 4, 2020

It began for us back in 1215, when King John signed the greatest document of freedom and human rights ever imagined. That document, the Magna Carta, established the full right to a trial by jury of your peers.

In today's podcast, TLC alum and faculty member Vicki Slater (TLC 2003) takes us back over 800 years to the foundation of our greatest freedom. Enjoy her recitation of a seminal case 400 years after the right to a trial by jury was established. An upstart advocate fought for his client, a Mr. Bushel, who dogmatically refused to be manipulated by the King. That advocate was responsible for the foundations of the First Amendment to the US Constitution as he was prone to practice his religion in public speeches.

Vicki then transports us to the present day, where current events still prominently feature freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and the most sacred right of all, the 7th Amendment’s right to a Trial By JURY. Listen to this enthusiastic, entertaining, and educational journey with the perfect narrator, Vicki Slater.

Jul 27, 2020

Have you ever wanted to talk to the jury after a trial? TLC podcast host Rafe Foreman recommends it, and in fact insists on it himself. Imagine the insights you could gain from talking to an actual juror about the trial.

Today we have what is likely to be an epic podcast, and a first in TLC history. TLC Graduate Benjamin Cloward (TLC Sept 2013) recently won a $38 million unanimous verdict for an inadequate or negligent security case in Las Vegas, Nevada. Today Ben and one of the jurors on the case join Rafe to give you a few key insights into the trial, her role and experience as a juror, and Ben’s own unique interpretation of how TLC methods and collages helped secure this victory.

Ben reveals some critical insights as to how he accomplished this tremendous feat and how it impacted the jury from the point of view of an actual juror. The vulnerability shown by both of our speakers here today reveals their passion, their drive, and their sincerity. You will not want to miss this journey down the justice highway.

Jul 20, 2020

“If there’s one takeaway from this entire thing, it’s if you’re arguing, you’re losing. No matter where you are in life -- whether it’s a courtroom or with your significant other or your best friend or a complete stranger -- if you’re arguing, you’re already down the wrong path, so take a deep breath, count to ten, and start over.”

TLC graduate and faculty member Renee Stackhouse (TLC Sept 2012) visits with host Rafe Foreman about the transformative power of TLC voir dire methods, both in and out of the courtroom. 

Renee is a serious force in San Diego’s legal community, recognized equally for her tenacity, diligence, legal knowledge, and exceptional trial skills. As an advocate, Renee is lauded for her strategic and empathetic approach, and she is known as a leader in the profession and the community.

In this interview, Renee discusses how voir dire helps to identify the implicit biases that may affect a juror's view on a case, and how honing your active listening skills can help you provide a non-judgmental, safe space for jurors to share their biases. "You have to be willing to be vulnerable with the jurors - to "show them yours" - before they will show up authentically with you," Renee says. She describes how in voir dire (and in life), it is important to listen with an open heart and mind, even if you disagree with what someone is saying. "You have to provide a safe space for people to say what they need to say and feel heard, without trying to change their mind. That's not our job. In a way, it goes against our training because we’re trained to pick a side and advocate for that side, but we have to give jurors the space to come to their own conclusions."

Jul 11, 2020

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews TLC graduate, trial lawyer, and faculty member Greg Westfall on the transformative power of TLC methods in preparing for and trying a criminal defense case.

In this wide-ranging interview, Greg discusses the importance of meeting your clients where they are, rather than trying to make them fit an expectation. "People will sense if you don’t like them or are afraid of them. You have to love them. If you do, then you’re thinking about them – what they want and they need." Greg does what it takes to get a complete picture of his clients' story - going to their homes and walking their streets. "Going into the setting gives you a different perspective on the story than you get if you're just listening to the client tell it."

Greg is the faculty leader for TLC's intensive course for criminal defense attorneys, In Defense of the Damned (IDD), scheduled for June 2021. IDD students participate in two days of psychodrama, followed by breakout sessions on opening statement, voir dire and cross-examination using their own cases.

Greg says it is the job of the criminal defense attorney to forge an emotional connection between the defendant and the jury; skills they will learn at the Trial Lawyers College. "We are community people," Greg says. "We are people who live in groups. Your jury is looking at your client and asking, 'is this person one of us?' They are looking at the criminal defense attorney and asking, 'is this person one of us?' It's our job to help them see themselves in our clients and in us."

Jun 30, 2020

TLC alumna Ginger Ortiz (TLC Sept 2011) takes us through a deep exercise on getting in touch with our humanness. Through her own experience, she carefully guides us to help find the source in ourselves, our clients, and those we serve. She cheerfully reminds us that we must be vigilant in working on the mission statement to be inclusive worldwide.

"As we all learn together, and as we all grow together, it's really individual growth that is the most transformative,” Ginger says. Using her own brilliant example, we learn about shaking up the "snow globe."

According to Ginger, "Once we start working, once we begin, things start to happen." Exploring what is in your "snow globe" is often difficult, but Ginger does not shy away from hard work. She has made it her life’s work to help those who have suffered injustice. She has a huge capacity for holding people's stories, and for making space to be a receptacle for others. Ginger challenges us to answer;  HOW do we punish someone whose life has been so scarred?

Jun 24, 2020
Tick tock, tick tock, drip, drip, drip. For over 25 years, these sounds and the screams of mankind -- literal screams, the kind you cannot forget -- disturbed this week's special guest from his peace.
Darryl Burton served hard time for a murder he did not commit. The compelling story of how he survived to walk free is an epic tale, but in his life today Darryl draws upon the experiences of the past to give others a brighter future. Today he follows a different calling -- the eternal call of faith in God.
A preacher and a freedom fighter, Darryl spends his days visiting Covid-19 patients, inmates, and those who need a little faith. His nonprofit organization, The Miracle of Innocence was founded to get much-needed funds to those who are actually innocent and need referrals for legal representation. The organization supports re-entry of innocent prisoners through referrals and placement for housing, job opportunities, life skills, transportation, and much more. They also educate communities about the injustice and needs of innocent prisoners to gain support and advocacy for their release and re-entry success.
Darryl offers solutions and an urgent plea for TLC. Please listen as Darryl creates the reality of the world with his words, faith, and deeds. Listen carefully to the challenge he offers to each of you. Will you answer the call?
Jun 17, 2020

Milton Grimes is a true American treasure. He is perhaps best known for his representation of Rodney King, whose savage beating at the hands of police, followed by the acquittal of the officers involved, sparked the 1991 LA riots. In addition to being a long time TLC faculty member and serving on the TLC board of directors, Milton is still a very active community activist for freedom and civil rights for all. He recently marched in California with his daughter to show support for those who have been oppressed and killed with a knee in their neck.

Milton decries racism and cites a recent statement signed by all 9 justices of the Washington Supreme Court challenging the legal community to take concerted action in supporting racial justice.

Milton provides an inside look into the long-standing problem of disparate treatment while in the midst of a worldwide pandemic. This interview is a message of hope from a battle-scarred and true warrior for justice. Beneath his armor, you will find a heart as big as the sky. Tune in for the magic of Milton Grimes,

Jun 11, 2020

Host Rafe Foreman talks with TLC alumni and faculty member Ashley Parris (TLC 2008) about how TLC alumni and faculty are developing innovative working and teaching methods to cope with and transcend the challenges of recent months. Ashley joined the faculty team of the Trial Lawyers College in 2017, and in this episode describes how she connected with other TLC faculty and alumni to process individual and collective anxiety and stress, and how the group was inspired to reach out and help others.

"Whose hand is on your shoulder? Whose shoulder is your hand on?" Ashley asks. "This is the time to reach out to those people."

"We have all felt rejected and excluded at some point. When we drill down to the feeling and the emotions that sit behind it, everyone can relate to that. And that's the place that you need to get to. And that's why this work is so valuable. And that's why we keep practicing it, and why we're determined to keep it alive to teach it to others."

Jun 3, 2020

Host Rafe Foreman talks with TLC alumni and faculty member Caroline Durham (TLC Sept 2014) about the stone catcher's path. Caroline uses her wit and wisdom in sharing her perspective that we are vibrational beings and how we can reach across time and distance to relate to one another. "We are never really separated from one another, unless we choose to be," Caroline says.

Caroline's concept of "Sacred Friends" (they're not who you think!) will cause you to ponder your next move.

May 25, 2020

"The College will always have that psychodramatic underpinning, that self-discovery and true knowledge of self, coupled with love,  the most powerful thing there is. You can be who you are and be powerful. You don't have to be anybody else. You are enough."

TLC alumni and Board member JR Clary talks openly with host Rafe Foreman about story and its importance. “A story must be told in a way that allows the listener to understand that from my own human experience I can connect to the story you are telling. It awakens within me feelings of, for example, betrayal, or hurt or pain or immense joy. And because your story is awakening that feeling within me, we are like two piano strings that once one has been struck, the other resonates."

JR has served on the Board of Directors for the Trial Lawyers College since 2010 and currently serves as the TLC Treasurer. 

May 21, 2020

"During my trip, I learned that in Latin American culture, hummingbirds symbolize strength, hope and migration. I knew that I wanted to use that symbol in my paintings when I got home." 

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews Portland artist Janie Lowe on her travels along the US/Mexico border and the artwork that resulted from her journey. Explore paintings from Janie's Borderland Stories collection as you listen.

In May of 2019, Janie traveled from her home in Portland to get a first-hand view of the people and the environment along the border between Texas and Mexico. Her travels took her from Brownsville to El Paso, donating supplies and volunteering at respite centers, visiting with landowners, and seeking to understand and capture the struggle for survival along the Rio Grande river.

Janie discusses the efforts underway to construct a wall along the border and how the wall will impact residents, migrants, and the environment. "The closer we got to the wall, the more opposition there was to it. I didn't talk to one person on the border that thought it was a good idea to put the wall up and that it would do any good at all."

She shares how what she observed surprised her, saying, "I think that I expected to go down there and be heartbroken and see all this injustice, but you don't see people rushing over the river, you don't see this rush of people. You don't see the detention centers. What I did not expect was the hope that I saw and felt. That ordinary people step in and do what needs to be done for humanitarian purposes, just to help people out. People will step in and do things where the government has failed."

May 12, 2020

"I believe...we’re going to see an incredible explosion in everything that TLC is, everything that TLC stands for, and everything that TLC can be."

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews TLC President John Sloan on the strength of the Trial Lawyers College. A TLC graduate and seasoned trial lawyer, John graduated from TLC in 1998 and joined the faculty in 2002. He was named to the Board of Directors in 2010 and has served as President since 2014.

In this interview, John shares his belief in psychodrama as the bedrock of the Trial Lawyers College, and as an essential tool in connecting with clients and jurors. "The surprising thing is that through the psychodramatic method, you're going to find something in common with everyone." John first discovered psychodrama at the Trial Lawyers College in 1998, more than 18 years into his practice. "I had had some success by then, but I realized at TLC that I really didn't know very much about what was available to me in the practice of law. I didn't understand the power that could be at my beck and call if I was willing to put in the work the story, discover the emotion of the story, to learn to love even the unlovable client."

John describes the challenges the Trial Lawyers College faces in planning seminars and colleges in the midst of a pandemic and discusses how the College might evolve in the future, from video conferencing to offering more advanced training at regional seminars. "We have an incredible staff committed to our method, who have worked their butts off for years in continuing our method, perfecting it, and figuring out better ways to teach it. The Trial Lawyers College is strong, is going to continue, and is going to be better."

May 4, 2020

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews TLC graduate, trial lawyer, and focus group researcher Bruce Phillips on creative ways to continue to drive your cases and your practice forward during tough times.

In this wide-ranging interview, Bruce describes how he has come to see the importance of blending the personal with the professional, rather than trying to keep them separated, as a tool for bringing new insight and intuition to trying a case. An accomplished musician, Bruce describes how "TLC was where I quite denying that side of myself and tried to find a way to integrate it into my practice." Whether literally composing a piece for use in a video to be used in a case, or simply playing music as a way to relax his mind and look at the issues in a different way, Bruce says he has found that bringing more of himself into a case allows him to be more connected and creative.

In 2019, Bruce started exploring the idea of conducting online focus groups in addition to traditional face-to-face sessions. The 2020 COVID-19 pandemic made the move to online essential and helped to promote broader use and improvements to web meeting technology. "While we're all sitting at home during this period of isolation, who else is sitting at home? Jurors!" Bruce says, encouraging his fellow TLC alum to explore this new opportunity. "Many of the TLC techniques can still be used in the online videoconferencing setting."

Bruce encourages TLC graduates to get in touch with him if they are interested in exploring the idea of online focus groups further. "Call if you're running your own focus group or you just need some help getting started. Right now is a wonderful opportunity to be of service to one another. The universe will bring it back in due time."

Apr 28, 2020

"Many of us are loved all the time, by many people. But if we don't get it the way we want it, the exact way we want...we don't feel loved. There is a piece of us that tends to not acknowledge the love around us."

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews TLC psychodramatist Don Clarkson. Don Clarkson is a professor, psychodramatist and philosopher who has been with the Trial Lawyers College from its very creation. In this episode, Don talks about depression, his life and his hopes as he shares intimate solutions that may just be the answer you seek. He shares his perspective on how a crisis like COVID-19 can be an opportunity for self-reflection. "I think pain is our greatest teacher. I think it is the growth producer in our life," Don says.

Give a listen, you will not be disappointed.

Apr 13, 2020

"Medical school taught me how to diagnose symptoms and how to give the drug to treat... There is no money in chronic disease resolution; there is money in chronic disease management."

The TLC Podcast branches out this month as host Rafe Foreman interviews Texas physician, Dr. Ben Edwards, on the crossroads between medicine and the law.

Dr. Edwards made the shift to integrative medicine after building a successful practice in conventional medicine. He works with his patients to drill down to the root cause of their symptoms, considering the patient's unique needs and incorporating what he calls the "Four Pillars of Health" - nutrition, hydration, movement, and peace - to make lasting change.

In this wide-ranging interview, Dr. Edwards shares his observations about the US healthcare system, describing it as having the worst outcomes of any first-world nation, despite the highest spending on healthcare. He calls for a shift in the medical education system toward a more integrated, holistic model over the current pharmaceutical model.

The interview takes a deep dive into the development and administering of vaccines and discusses how injuries related to vaccinations were taken outside the court system, indemnifying vaccine developers and limiting compensation.

Mar 30, 2020

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews trial lawyer and TLC graduate and faculty member Terry Lenamon on trying death penalty cases armed with methods learned and practiced at the Trial Lawyers College.

Terry is a trial lawyer practicing in Miami-Dade County, Florida, where he has built a reputation as one of Florida’s most respected criminal defense lawyers handling capital death penalty cases. He has handled in excess of 85 first degree murder cases. His experience has brought him national recognition as a go-to commentator on death penalty issues.

In this episode, Terry talks with Rafe about how discovering the story plays an expanded role in a death penalty defense, expanding beyond the story of the offense to consider the story of the defendant's life and circumstances leading up to the offense.

Mar 9, 2020

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews trial lawyer and TLC graduate Benjamin Cloward (TLC Sept 2013) on how the methods taught in TLC courses translate to actual use in a trial.

Ben is a partner in the Richard Harris Law Firm in Las Vegas, Nevada. In 2017, Ben was recognized as the Nevada Justice Association’s Trial Lawyer of the Year, the youngest to receive the award. He was also named to the National Trial Lawyers list of “Top 40 Under 40,” reserved for the best young trial attorneys in the country.

Over the past several years, Ben has obtained verdicts in excess of $10 million on several cases; successes he attributes in large part to the methods learned at the Trial Lawyers College. As a follow-on to one of those cases, Ben successfully lobbied the Nevada legislature for passage of AB234 “Harvey’s Law,” requiring paratransit bus drivers to be trained in first aid. Harvey’s Law was inspired by Ben’s work with the Chernikoff family, whose mentally disabled son, Harvey, choked to death while riding a paratransit bus.

Most recently, Ben obtained a stunning verdict of $38.5 million in a wrongful death suit. Ben called on his TLC training and the support of the TLC tribe in preparing his case. “There’s not another community, ListServ, organization, or school of thought like TLC,” Ben said. “You have individuals who come from all walks of life, from all across the country, who come together with the common bond of wanting to be a warrior for their client…to be a voice for the voiceless.”

Ben loves people and loves to fight for those who can’t fight for themselves. When he’s not in the courtroom, he likes to be outdoors, hunting, fishing or long-range target shooting. Ben is a devoted husband, father and Boston Red Sox fan.

Feb 12, 2020

TLC Podcast host Rafe Foreman interviews Valeri Malone on how she has incorporated the methods learned at the Trial Lawyers College into her practice. 

Valeri is an associate at Loncar Associates in Lubbock, Texas, where she specializes in personal injury and accident cases. She brings two decades of experience to her clients and to the Loncar team. Her reputation as a hard-working, successful trial lawyer has earned her the respect of her peers and the trust of her clients.

Valeri received her bachelor’s degree from Stephen F. Austin State University in Nacogdoches, Texas, and her juris doctorate from Texas Tech University School of Law. While in law school, Mrs. Malone was a member of the prestigious John Marshall National Moot Court Team and a National Semi-Finalist. She was selected for early admission to Texas Tech School of Law’s advocacy program, the Board of Barristers, in which she ranked first in her class. She was also the Chair of Appellate Advocacy for the Board of Barristers.

Valeri was named as a Texas Super Lawyer, Rising Star in 2007, in 2008, and in 2009 by Thomson Reuters.

Jan 23, 2020

Maren Chaloupka is a criminal defense and civil plaintiff’s trial lawyer. She has a diverse practice, and she especially enjoys working on civil rights cases, including wrongful conviction cases and cases involving medical and mental health care in jails and prisons.  She lives in the small town of Scottsbluff, Nebraska, and serves clients wherever her work takes her. Maren is leading the Cross-Examination Constellation Regional Seminar at the Captain Cook Hotel in Anchorage, March 27-29, 2020. You can register your seat on the TLC Website at 

Nov 7, 2019

In this episode, Scott Glovsky, host of the popular podcast, Trial Lawyer Talk, TLC Graduate & Faculty Member talks about a recent wrongful death case with Brooks Cutter, Sacramento Trial Lawyer, and TLC Faculty Leader. Both of these incredible trial lawyers will be supporting TLC seminars in 2020. Learn methods to win at seminars across the nation that offer the acclaimed methods of Gerry Spence, Famed Trial Lawyer & TLC Co-Founder.

Aug 29, 2019

Oklahoma Trial Lawyer, Jacqui Ford talks about the reputation of trial lawyers and the power of conversation and credibility in and out of the courtroom. Jacqui has been attending TLC courses since 2013 and joined the faculty in 2015. She has since broadened her practice from only criminal defense to criminal defense and civil work. She is an avid member of her Oklahoma Local Working Group and has always shown her passion for everything she does with TLC.

Aug 6, 2019

In this episode, TLC's host talks with the co-leaders of the newly structured TLC Graduate-1 program, Mel Orchard & Vicki Slater. The host was able to take a back-seat to the first-launched program last year to see how they brought the Graduates out of their comfort zones with theatrical arts and music as well as trial skills. Mel & Vicki talk highly about the effectiveness of bringing creativity in as an important skill in the TLC methods and how this can relay to the jury in trial. 

May 17, 2019

Ian Anthony is our guest in this episode of the Trial Lawyers College Podcast. In this episode, we talk about how TLC differs from law school and why these differences are so important for trial lawyers. Ian Anthony is a 2016 July Graduate of the Trial Lawyers College and has attended several TLC courses since. He teaches trial advocacy at the University of Maryland School of Law and is the head coach for the trial team. He also practices as a public defender to indigents in Howard County, Maryland.

Apr 18, 2019

Welcome to episode 48 of the Trial Lawyers College Podcast. Donal McRoberts is our guest in this episode. He started his practice in 2011 handling family law and criminal defense, and by chance had an opportunity to represent a person injured in a car accident where the insurance company was denying responsibility and he’s been representing injured people since. Donal is a graduate of the 2018 July College Class and in this episode, he shares some insight into what goes on during the famous Flagship 3-Week College; the inspiration he felt while he was there and following, the connections he made and still has, and how the methods have drastically changed the way he feels about law, and how he uses them in his practice.

Join Donal as one of our students and learn methods that will change the way you practice law. You can register for a course or apply to the 3-Week College on our website at

Mar 28, 2019

In this episode, Scott Glovsky, 2007 grad and faculty member, is hosting this interview with Frank Mungo. Scott is the host of successful podcast, Trial Lawyer Talk where he interviews many of today's Trial Lawyers. Episode guest, Frank Mungo, graduated from the Trial Lawyers College in 2008 and joined the faculty in 2011. He focuses his practice on defending those unjustly charged by the government in Kentucky, Ohio, and federal courts. Frank is quick to give credit to the methods taught at the Trial Lawyers College, from discovering the story to cross-examination, as the key reason for his courtroom successes.

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